Scootervul.com Forum

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

So I'm trying to look for parts for my Bajaj.

I understand that my Bajaj is very similar to a Vespa VBC.

I understand that VBC is Vespa geek speak for a 150 Super or Sprint(?).

Looking at parts at Scooterworks (among others) for the Vespa equivalents, VBC doesn't seem to pop up very often. Super and Sprint pop up sometimes, but not often either.

I see other codes pop up a lot more. Like P200, VLX, VNX, etc.

Are some of those codes just engine codes? Like does a VBC have a certain engine code I should be looking for? Or does it have the same engine as another chassis that I could look for instead?

Or are the VBC just kind of hard to find engine parts for?

I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about this project. For example, I think I need a stator - I don't have a flywheel puller yet, so I don't know for sure.

But I hate to spend $80+ for a stator + $20 for points + ?? for a coil + $30 for a battery, if I could do a CDI conversion for about the same price... maybe less depending on how much stuff I really need.

But when I start making shopping carts at Scooterworks to compare the prices of the two, I'm having a hard time figuring out what parts fit my bike...

And the fact that it isn't a "real" Vespa and even VBC parts may not work isn't confidence inspiring either...

I wish junk engines weren't hard to find. I'd just start building a P200 or a real 150 Super engine.

Then at least I'd know what I had exactly... I'd hate to get my Baja engine 90% rebuilt, just to find that some little detail is difference and something won't work like I had hoped...

Seems like you can put together a whole engine for some of the Vespas for less than $1000 and end up with something pretty monstrous.

Any input anybody has on any of that is welcome and appreciated...

PJ · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:09 am Post subject:

You want VBC parts, which aren't as common as VNX/VSX (P-series), but still quite available. Scooterworks may not have knowledgeable salespeople (they seem to have quite a revolving door operation, wherein just about the time a person starts to know their shit they either get fired or quit). Try other shops like Vespa Motorsport, Scooter Parts Direct, Scoot Richmond, Garners Classic Scooters, etc. Look around, SW isn't the only game in town though they do like to project that image. I think San Francisco Scooter Center sold a ton of the new Bajajs, maybe they have some insights on the old ones too?

Alternately you could pick up a rebuildable P-series engine and pop that in (though you'd have to figure out the wiring diagram beforehand), if you are mechanically-inclined and have a few specialized tools it's not too hard. There are also some great videos available now which walk you through every step of the process, thoroughly. I've heard they're very good, the DVD is like 4 or 6 hours long and costs maybe $20-30? Sorry I don't have a link but it should be searchable on Google.

Good luck!
PJ

XveganstellaX666 · Joined: 24 Jun 2010 Posts: 74 Location: louisville

stillpoint has a rebuildable stella engine in her garage right now that she would part with.

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

Thanks for the info guys!

I sent stillpoint a PM. Sounds like that would be fun and a good starting point for de-Bajaj-ifying my Chetak.

I'm not really too afraid of trying an engine swap on my bike. I've done a few car engine rebuilds and a swap or two. Something that has 3 moving parts and only a dozen or so wires would probably be a refreshing change.

I presume with a Stella engine, I could just use a complete Stella wiring harness. Those are pretty cheap.

I'd probably have to put a different carb on it since my scoot has no oil tank and the ID tag is right were the sight glass would go. Might as well put a performace carb on it...

And if it needs a rebuild, might as well put a bigger cylinder kit on it...

And my exhaust is kinda rusty... so...

The most awesome things about scooters is that you can build one into a monster for less than what new set of tires for a car cost...

voxboy · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:00 am Post subject:

Well, I'm thinking it ought to just drop right into the frame (or near enough to it!) -- just take care and don't hammer around on that rear pivot fitting, where the lower end of the shock absorber mounts (RIP Graham's First Stella Engine!). The improvement in performance will probably be impressive -- I know I was impressed with the handling of PJ's old Stella-equipped Vespa!

As to the wiring harness, I don't know ... you might do better to adapt the Bajaj's few wires to the Stella's engine, it might be less work. I know from experience that the P-Series and later bikes have about 100 connections to be made on the wiring harness -- you'd probably be using only a few of those wires. The differences in the stator plate are a definite consideration, but you might be able to fudge that just as easily with a few extra wires.

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

I think my plan at this point is to try a few more things to get the Bajaj engine running and then pick up the Stella engine an rebuild and swap it in over the winter.

So... Will one of these older bikes start with a battery connected IF the stator is bad?

I got my carb rebuild kit, points, condensor, and a few other small things in the mail today. I'm going to work on the carb tonight. What I can see of the points, they look clean. I'll check the gap tonight. But it's just not showing any signs of spark. And with my multimeter on the various connections at the power block, the needle on the meter is not even wiggling when I kick it.

I didn't realize that I needed a special flywheel puller until after I ordered the other parts. I'm hoping that the puller gets here before the weekend.

But in the meantime, I've been thinking about sticking a battery in just to see if it will fire that way. If I could hear it run, then it might change my plans for how I want to attack the project.

So will a battery feed the coil or does it need the stator in working order too???

Thanks again!

PJ · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject:

Sorry, I don't know much about electrical issues, but you can probably find a somewhat-similar wiring diagram at scooterhelp.com: http://www.scooterhelp.com/electrics/70.elec.html

If you're electrically-savvy, you can probably read those to understand what needs what to run.

I have a flywheel puller tool but unfortunately I don't live in the area anymore, not sure if anyone else locally has one. James? Don? Doug?

Good luck,
PJ

voxboy · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:28 pm Post subject:

I also have a flywheel puller, but I don't know if it'll work on a vintage engine (or a Bajaj, for that matter). If you haven't had the flywheel off yet ... I'm trying to remember if the points bikes also have a condenser under the flywheel. A new condenser might solve the problem, I know if they go bad, that can stop an electrical charge from going through. I can't imagine the stator plate is necessarily bad, that seems like a comparatively rare problem.

So, does this model HAVE a battery, to begin with? You're missing your headlight, IIRC, otherwise, I'd recommend kicking it, and seeing if the filament is glowing any. Also, you should be able (once you find the right schematic, which is a job in itself!) to disconnect the various wires leading into the coil, and test for resistance. I have no idea what "normal" readings are, but if you either get no resistance or infinite resistance, you know you have a problem. If anything, what you may find (since I seem to recall this thing might be from the early 80s?) is that the wiring to the stator plate (if it's anything like that on P-Series models of a similar age) has corroded and disintegrated inside the insulation -- I'm told this was supposed to be some kind of high-temperature-resistant wiring, and it seems to go bad in just this fashion (in my case, the insulation all discolored so that EVERY wire appeared to be eggplant-colored). It's possible you might be getting a short across two different circuits, if the insulation running to and from the stator is shot, or if the wiring has all corroded inside the wiring, that might cause an open circuit. Hope that helps!

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

This bike is supposed to have a battery. Don Spencer told me it would run without one. He also told me that if everything was disconnected from the ignition switch it would still run - because nothing was grounded out. Didn't sound right to me, but he's the pro...

So that's where I have it right now. No battery. Nothing hooked up in the headset.

Today I had a friend here to help with this a little bit.

We held a multimeter set to VAC on each wire going into the ignition coil and kicked the engine. It showed like 1.5v, but it was fluctuating really fast to it was hard to see what the decimal point was doing. It could have been .15v.

We also checked the VAC at each point in the junction box to ground and got about the same result.

But then I came in and did a lot of reading... I've got a lot to learn...

I read today that the three coils in the stator function independently. One just feeds the coil. The other two feed the lights and horn.

I would think that it would be off for all three to fail, but all three still put out the the same small amount of voltage.

From what I have seen through the holes in the flywheel, everything inside the flywheel looks shockingly clean. No discolored wires. No signs of corrosion. Not even much dust or anything.

In my previous job, I saw a lot of electric motors with burnt windings. I've seen the inside of many sealed motors that had been smoked. I've smelt the smell. I didn't get any of vibe with anything.

I really think it might be something dumb like the condenser or I need to reset the points gap. I adjusted it around by turning the flywheel until it looked like it was at the peak of it's opening, but I could have been off... not being able to see the lobe because the flywheel is in the way.

And it looks like replacing the condenser requires pulling the flywheel (I have new points and condenser on hand though).

Thus I'm waiting on a flywheel puller...

Got an email it was shipped today from Scooterworks, so probably Friday.

I really hope it works on the Bajaj flywheel.

I ordered this one.

http://www.scooterworks.com/Tool-Flywheel-Puller-Bajaj-P3453.aspx

It is one of the only only 11 parts that come up at Scooterworks if you type in Bajaj. It better be the right one.

PJ · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:07 pm Post subject:

If that flywheel puller doesn't work, I'd imagine the one Doug (voxboy) has will. I don't think there are more than 2 variations which cover virtually all vintage Vespa models. The other one listed at SW which I think it could be: http://www.scooterworks.com/Tool-Flywheel-Puller-P-ART5242-P3451C571.aspx

...says it's for P-series bikes. So the one you got *should* work. (it could also just mean that it's made by Bajaj, since a lot of aftermarket parts are, but you'd think if they made it it would fit their own bikes/parts.) Smile

PJ

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

I played with it a little more.

I tried loosening the nut that holds the flywheel on. I didn't realize there was a c-clip that had to come off before the nut would come out. The nut has a permanent washer on it, so when the nut came loose, it pushed the flywheel off of the taper on the crank and it pretty much fell right off in my hand.

I'm sure that's probably list in the instruction as a "DON'T" - pulling the flywheel with the clip, but it worked.

My ignition feeder coil is dead. The wire coming out of it going to the points looks burnt. It shows infinite resistance on the meter. It looks like it's been hot.

Additionally, the points are different than the ones I ordered. The points on the engine come off with a clip. There is a screw that hold the adjustment, but the pivot is threaded into the stator plate and you have to take a pin out to pull the points off the pivot.

It looks like the pivot screws off with a special tool - some kind of tiny spanner. The new points might work if I could screw the stud out of the stator plate, but it still might not be right. I think there is no hole for the little eccentric you turn to adjust the points gap.

And the condenser I got is different too - the one I got is a one wire, the bike has a two wire condenser.

I don't know if I ordered the wrong year parts or what... The carb kit was right, but then those seemed to change less often that other stuff on the engine.

With everything put back together, with the spark plug out, I spun the engine up to speed with my impact wrench on the flywheel nut. The leads from the lighting coils are showing no current either. They OHM out OK - well they OHM out somewhere between infinite and 0 and they both ohm out the same, but for some reason they don't seem to be making any power. Maybe the brushes or the magnets on the flywheel.

I dunno. I kinda think I'm done with the Bajaj engine. Maybe I just ordered the wrong parts. Maybe I should have known better which ones to order, but this is that whole fear that I'm going to start ordering parts and they're all just going to be a little bit wrong...

Maybe I'm just frustrated because it's 4am...

But I'm thinking that Stella engine is looking better and better all the time...

XveganstellaX666 · Joined: 24 Jun 2010 Posts: 74 Location: louisville

i say go for it with the stella engine and sell the bajaj engine on ebay. somewhere out there is a scooter enthusiast that needs a period correct bajaj engine for a project, and they will actually know how to repair its few problems. in the end everyone wins. haha.

once you take a step like putting an engine from a different manufacturer in there, it will be sort of freeing because no other modification will seem like a blasphemous thing to do.

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to do the Stella engine. And it's still a two stroke, 150cc, 4 speed, Indian built engine. Not too much blasphemy.

I'll probably keep the Bajaj engine around though. I'll fix it when I have time and can get the right parts. Then maybe if I find an old Vespa, another Bajaj, or something else similar that needs work, I'll have a spare engine.

I get the feeling this won't be the last old scooter I play with.

BTW. I started cleaning up the paint some too.

Doesn't look too bad. That's a quick once-over with a mild cleaner wax.

More BIG pics here if anybody wants to see.

http://s450.photobucket.com/albums/qq228/JamesISpalding/Bajaj%20Chetak/Paint/

stillpoint · Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject:

ka-ching!

(just kidding)

voxboy · Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:18 pm Post subject:

Hmmm ... might not hurt to also join that "scoot.net" board, or whatever it's called (you know, PJ, the whitewall-haters! Wink

), somebody over there might know something about it. I can't answer to which condenser is correct, but if it looks original, I'm guessing it probably hasn't been messed with. Sounds like you got lucky with the flywheel (apart from apparently having bought a puller for nothing, not that it won't come in handy in the future) -- sometimes that happens.

I've never had a lick of luck with "points bikes," so I'm not sure how much help I'll be THERE -- but it might be well worth looking into giving it a 12 volt/electronic ignition conversion -- that'll get you around the nuisance portion of a vintage bike, it'll get you a stronger headlight beam, and it'll completely replace the whole stator plate, so bye-bye, burnt coils.

It might not hurt to peel back a little insulation on some of those stator wires, and see if they're not loaded with corrosion -- that might explain the weak output (I was surprised how corroded mine were, and my engine was equally clean inside).

You can indeed run it without a battery, but I was told somewhere (SW? The Haynes Manual?) that this was a good way to ruin your electrical system. Then again, maybe that's what a previous owner did, and hence all the apparent electronic mayhem. Apparently, even a dead battery's better than no battery at all, from what I gather. I really wish I had time to delve into this bike, I probably live scarcely more than a mile from you.

I see where they do carry a 2-wire condenser, and it IS recommended for at least SOME VBCs -- they also list a part number for points for that condenser -- forgive me if you've already researched all this, I'm just trying to be helpful (sometimes I overdo it). I see no mention of replacement ignition coils, but it looks as though the other two can be had for something like $24, so if you've got a little money to play with this thing, it looks like it wouldn't be TOO expensive to experiment with it a bit.

On the plus side, the paint job has cleaned up really nicely ... Smile

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

PJ · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:22 pm Post subject:

Fester,
You are awesome, the world needs more tinkerers and people with ambition like you! All of that electrical stuff is way out of my league, it sounds like you have the mind for it and I salute you. The site Doug was thinking of was ScooterBBS.com (vintage scooter section), you'll find a wider range of experts (and assholes, ha) there, since it's an international forum. Someone there may have dealt with a similar problem before, you might search their archives (use Google site search, the site's own search engine is iffy at best).

Best of luck,
PJ

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

Thanks for not saying "You're crazy, it'll never work!".

Turns out the flywheel puller I got from Scooterworks is not the right one for the Stella. It's also not the right one for the Bajaj. Ugh...

I can't believe how similar the Bajaj and the Stella engine are, without sharing a single part. It's like everything is 1mm off. It's annoying.

So can anybody teach me anything about brake and clutch levers? Like how interchangeable are they between the VBB, VBC, PX, etc?

That might give me an idea of which I need to order or my odds of them being wrong...

http://www.scooterworks.com/Stiletto-Lever-Old-Style-P1307.aspx

I'm guessing these???

The wording is a little wierd, I'm assuming they mean I need to order the hardware too???

Fester · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 17 Location: N'albany.

These are the best pics I have of the headset that might help identify which levers I need.

I can take pics from other angles if that helps. I just already had these and didn't want to venture back into bat country tonight...

http://www.scooterworks.com/Pivot-Bolt-P399.aspx

If Scooterworks just said something like the diameter of the head of that screw, then I could just measure it for myself and be fairly certain that I was ordering the right thing.

But then I guess they'd also sell a lot fewer parts from people not ordering the wrong thing. Razz

voxboy · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure, but I think the ones that would work for this are those for the Rally et al, but then, I have one of those now on my P200E, so they may be somewhat universal.

I have a couple of broken levers around here that I super-glued back together, you could probably check them for fit (I like to carry one still-usable lever in my glovebox because if you drop the bike for any reason, the lever is the first thing to break). Basically there's a single bolt that fits through there, it has a Phillips head and a large, un-threaded shaft, then a smaller end section with threads, IIRC. It fits down through the pivot hole, screws into the lower section of the handlebar, then there's a sort of a lock nut that screws onto the protruding section below. So it's tightened down to the handlebar, then locked from underneath, and has a large upper shaft upon which the brake lever pivots. Oh, and there are some generally useless little washers that are supposed to go on either side of the lever.